tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post115623737078805663..comments2023-06-02T05:56:55.748-05:00Comments on Love Each Stone: Unity in the Body of Christ and Unity in the SBCDavid Rogershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156534158560086892006-08-25T14:29:00.000-05:002006-08-25T14:29:00.000-05:00Bart,I think we are probably not all that far apar...Bart,<BR/><BR/>I think we are probably not all that far apart on our views on this issue. Perhaps my "merciful bent" is getting the best of me. <BR/><BR/>Add to that, in spite of the role my Dad played in the conservative resurgence, I have been relatively isolated over here in Spain from a lot the developments of the last 16 years, and perhaps from your point of view, a lot of my "naivete" can be explained.<BR/><BR/>I do not want to compromise God's Word on the altar of expediency. But neither do I want to compromise on what I understand God's Word to teach about unity.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your "iron on iron" help as I continue to think through these issues.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156531648176393932006-08-25T13:47:00.000-05:002006-08-25T13:47:00.000-05:00Ah....the Donatists. They were really Baptists, yo...Ah....the Donatists. They were really Baptists, you know. ;-) LOL<BR/><BR/>The emphasis there makes your comments agreeable to me, but it also makes them inapplicable to anyone. Is there anyone out there who would really black-ball someone from the SBC forever because of prior affiliation in the CBF.<BR/><BR/>For example, what would happen if, in Baptist Press tomorrow, Daniel Vestal released a press statement saying that the CBF is full of liberals, he now realizes that the conservative resurgence was a needed correction, he's resigning his post effective immediately, and he's devoting the remainder of his life to advocating inerrancy?<BR/><BR/>He'd be the darling of the SBC within a week.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156516449658682802006-08-25T09:34:00.000-05:002006-08-25T09:34:00.000-05:00What a wonderful call to unity.It reminded me of t...What a wonderful call to unity.<BR/>It reminded me of this scripture,<BR/>The test of our love for God's family lies in this question-do we love God himself and do we obey his commands? I John 5 (JB Phillips)<BR/>Is the problem, the leaf on the tree, or the root?<BR/>John seems to indicate it is the root of the tree.<BR/>Like King David, a good time for self examination.<BR/>Thanks for the reminder.<BR/>AgapeAlyceleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15130147737160480022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156505465148352632006-08-25T06:31:00.000-05:002006-08-25T06:31:00.000-05:00Bart,I must agree you have an interesting point wi...Bart,<BR/><BR/>I must agree you have an interesting point with what you say about Benjamin Bogard.<BR/><BR/>I was just wondering, if my comment you reference I were to put the words PERMANENTLY and RECONCILIATION in all caps, would you feel any better about that?<BR/><BR/>Shades of the Donatist controversy?David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156467038013693672006-08-24T19:50:00.000-05:002006-08-24T19:50:00.000-05:00David,I am sorry, I have got to slow down when rea...David,<BR/><BR/>I am sorry, I have got to slow down when reading. The email I was referring to was the comment you posted concerning Frank Page. I did not notice the quotation marks until now. I thought you had received an email from someone stating what you posted as Frank Page's statement.<BR/><BR/>After blogging with me for awhile I am sure you can probably guess why Peter is my favorite Biblical character.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TimTim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156463846698658972006-08-24T18:57:00.000-05:002006-08-24T18:57:00.000-05:00David,In spying, I prefer human intelligence to el...David,<BR/><BR/>In spying, I prefer human intelligence to electronic intelligence. I was checking out your town in Google Earth simply because of curiosity. My spies are the folks in the Smart Car across the street from your house with the laser mike.<BR/><BR/>:-)<BR/><BR/>I agree with everything in your original post. I don't agree with your elaborations in your comments. In my opinion, wrongful "guilt by association" comes when you just happen to be friends with somebody who believes this-and-such or does something-or-other. But when you JOIN such-and-such organization, it is not "guilt by association" to assume that you share some affinity with the core principles of that organization.<BR/><BR/>Benjamin Bogard grew up in the South and knew a lot of racists. That didn't make him guilty of anything. But, he went so far as to JOIN and write a pamphlet to DEFEND the KKK. He still claimed that he wasn't a racist, didn't support lynchings, etc. But his membership in the KKK gives me sufficient ground to call him a racist, and that is not, in my opinion, "guilt by association."<BR/><BR/>So, if a person has joined the CBF, I do not believe that it is an inappropriate "guilt by association" leap of logic to reach conclusions about that person's qualifications to lead the SBC. No person affiliated with the CBF ought to be in leadership of the SBC.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156459307993644312006-08-24T17:41:00.000-05:002006-08-24T17:41:00.000-05:00Vol fan,Thanks for the kind comment about my Dad.I...Vol fan,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the kind comment about my Dad.<BR/><BR/>I guess I will let you post here even if I am a Florida Gator fan (in football) and Memphis Tiger fan (in basketball).David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156459204176826072006-08-24T17:40:00.000-05:002006-08-24T17:40:00.000-05:00Tim Rogers,Remind me again what the e-mail thing y...Tim Rogers,<BR/><BR/>Remind me again what the e-mail thing you mention is about. I can't seem to recall what you are talking about.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156459128283785392006-08-24T17:38:00.000-05:002006-08-24T17:38:00.000-05:00Tim Rogers,I knew Wade in college, but it's been a...Tim Rogers,<BR/><BR/>I knew Wade in college, but it's been a long time, and we have both grown and changed a lot since then. I know him now, pretty much just like everyone else, by way of his blog (though I did get to say hello to him at the SBC).<BR/><BR/>I appreciate and share your concern for maintaining doctrinal purity in the SBC. It's just that I think that biblically unity in the Body of Christ "trumps" (as I say in my post) unity in the SBC. Unity in the SBC has to do with pragmatic concerns of getting the job done as well as we can possibly do it. It will be hard (as you infer) for people who don't truly believe the Bible to do a good job at missions and evangelism. Unity in the Body of Christ, however, has to do with being obedient to Christ's commands.<BR/><BR/>I think as much as possible we need to work towards both. But when there is a tension between the two, unity in the Body of Christ takes priority, in my opinion.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156451854605713912006-08-24T15:37:00.000-05:002006-08-24T15:37:00.000-05:00David,I am sorry for your email. The person doing...David,<BR/><BR/>I am sorry for your email. The person doing that should be told he/she is doing a dis-service to the cause of Christ to approach a Brother in Christ with that type of accusation.<BR/><BR/>volfan,<BR/>The only relation I know about with David is, as you hillbilly's would say it, bludkin. He and I have both been purchased by the Blood of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TimTim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156451645853138052006-08-24T15:34:00.000-05:002006-08-24T15:34:00.000-05:00David,Thank you Brother for your openness on this....David,<BR/><BR/>Thank you Brother for your openness on this. I did not presume on you to speak for Wade. I just felt that as you knew each other as friends in, I think college, you would know more where he is coming from. I certainly do not want to come across as guilt by association. At the same time, I know that I would not allow myself to be part of a group that I did not believe in reagardless of how strongly I did not like someone in another group.<BR/><BR/>Please hear my heart as I try desperately to get my point across without sounding harsh. I am in no way advocating that we do not get along with other Christians. I do maintain that we have to be united in the SBC and that unity, as I understand it, is around Missions and Evangelism. In order for us to make certain our Missions is truly Kingdom Work and our Evangelism is more than just giving kool-aide and sandwiches, we adopted the BF&M2K. Am I wrong on this? Truly, I want to know.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TimTim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156446454517506262006-08-24T14:07:00.000-05:002006-08-24T14:07:00.000-05:00david,i hope that you are right about frank page. ...david,<BR/><BR/>i hope that you are right about frank page. thats why i voted for him. plus, as a statement for the cp.<BR/><BR/>i agree with tim rogers as well. i think wade goes too far. he is saying welcome back the cbf'ers who allowed our sbc to go down the liberal drain to begin with. i would be very uncomfortable with someone who would affiliate with the cbf being in charge of anything in our beloved sbc.<BR/><BR/>david, <BR/><BR/>are you and tim related?<BR/><BR/>also, i just want to thank God for your dad, dr. adrian rogers. i thank God for him and men like him who led us out of the hold of liberalism.<BR/><BR/><BR/>volfan007volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156439479538892142006-08-24T12:11:00.000-05:002006-08-24T12:11:00.000-05:00Tim,As I understand it, Frank Page has indicated c...Tim,<BR/><BR/>As I understand it, Frank Page has indicated clearly he will only appoint people who personally hold to inerrancy:<BR/><BR/>-------------------------------<BR/>(From Baptist Press)<BR/><BR/>"Page was careful to point out that his call for “broadening of involvement” was methodological, not theological.<BR/><BR/>“I had an e-mail this morning from somebody wanting to know if I was a stealth candidate for the CBF [Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, a dissident group opposed to the current leadership of the SBC], which offended me. … As I’ve said over and over, I’m not talking about broadening the tent theologically; I’m talking about broadening the tent of involvement among godly conservatives.”<BR/><BR/>Page said his presidential appointments will include people who have a “sweet spirit,” are evangelistic, affirm the inerrancy of Scripture and strongly support the Cooperative Program, and the same will be expected from those who make recommendations to him for appointments."<BR/><BR/>--------------------------<BR/><BR/>I would assume that Wade Burleson has read this, and is in agreement with it. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps (I'm not completely sure where you're coming from) the real issue for you is "guilt by association." While I can see that past and/or present alignment with the CBF may be in some ways out of line with SBC core values, and thus, counterproductive when it comes to working together in the same "ministry project support group" (e.g. the SBC and its agencies), I do not believe people should be permanently "blacklisted" or "labeled" as "heretics" or "liberals" on the basis of what group they may have affiliated with. There should be an open door for reconciliation, but never compromise on essential doctrine. <BR/><BR/>Maybe Wade was intending to go beyond this, and say something else. I will have to let him speak for himself.<BR/><BR/>But that is what I have to say on this for the time being.<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156431980495128742006-08-24T10:06:00.000-05:002006-08-24T10:06:00.000-05:00Brother David,Thank you for your humble spirit and...Brother David,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your humble spirit and the way you have responded to me. If it were not for that attitude that I perceive, then I would just go my way. So, I guess this next question is in some way your fault. :>)<BR/><BR/>You know Wade Burleson and therefore I acquiesce to your perspective. But, IMFBHO (In My Flawed but Humble Opinion)I do not read his post as allowing the SBC to work with the CBF. I read it as reaching out to those in the CBF and bringing them back into the SBC. He refers to various men who led others out of the SBC and formed CBF. Then he says; "I now have met everyone of the above named men. They all believe the Bible. They all love the Lord Jesus Christ. They all love missions... There are thousands of kind, gracious, compassionate, Bible believing Southern Baptists in the Baptist General Convention of Texas and the Baptist General Convention of Virginia. <BR/>In a few months I would hope Dr. Frank Page will be appointing men and women from both the above named Conventions to serve on boards and agencies of the Southern Baptist Convention, just as he said he would."<BR/><BR/>I never remember hearing Dr. Page say he would appoint people out of other state conventions that were clearly aligned with the CBF to positions in the SBC.<BR/><BR/>I reference your orphanage illustration and agree completely that if in the future we can partner with the CBF to accomplish a particular mission we should. However, that does not seem, to me IMFBHO, what Wade is advocating.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TimTim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156362969761218002006-08-23T14:56:00.000-05:002006-08-23T14:56:00.000-05:00Bart,You're not spying on me, are you?The "mountai...Bart,<BR/><BR/>You're not spying on me, are you?<BR/><BR/>The "mountains" to the south of Alcalá de Henares (if that is where you are looking) are not all that tall.<BR/><BR/>If you are looking at the same picture that I brought up, the mountains to the north of Alcalá, and a bit to the west, are quite a bit taller. On the picture I brought up (which is obviously not today) there is still a good bit of snow on these mountains.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156360852257770342006-08-23T14:20:00.000-05:002006-08-23T14:20:00.000-05:00So, how high are those mountains south of you? Goo...So, how high are those mountains south of you? Google Earth doesn't really give a good perspective for that sort of thing.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156357640898455792006-08-23T13:27:00.000-05:002006-08-23T13:27:00.000-05:00<No longer scratching my head>Thanks for the...<No longer scratching my head><BR/><BR/>Thanks for the clarification, David. I appreciate it.<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>BartBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156346736123442872006-08-23T10:25:00.000-05:002006-08-23T10:25:00.000-05:00Bart,Let me see if I can be more clear.I did not s...Bart,<BR/><BR/>Let me see if I can be more clear.<BR/><BR/>I did not say that "the post was designed to keep us from reacting so quickly to Wade's post." <BR/><BR/>I did say that "I do hope, however, that the perspective I offer here would help some to not be so quick to judge Wade's motives."<BR/><BR/>And I do say now that "the post was designed in order to communicate what I consider to be an important distinction between unity in the Body of Christ and unity in the SBC, which often gets in the way of clear thinking and understanding, when we are talking about issues such as those brought up on Wade's blog, as well as yours, Nathan Finn's, and Jeremy Green's."<BR/><BR/>If a by-product of this "clarified thinking" can be that people will perhaps see Wade's motives from another perspective (i.e. "We allow them to go their way, but continue to love them, continue to accept them, continue to fellowship with them, and even remain open to the possibility of cooperating with them, whenever circumstances warrant a strategic cooperation in order to get a ministry project for which we share a common interest or commitment accomplished"), and, if indeed those are Wade's motives (which I at least understand them to be), I for one will be glad.<BR/><BR/>But that was not the motive for this post.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156342780711670682006-08-23T09:19:00.000-05:002006-08-23T09:19:00.000-05:00Bro. Tim,No...I came nowhere close to taking offen...Bro. Tim,<BR/><BR/>No...I came nowhere close to taking offense. I was just saying that I read it differently. Honestly, David's statement that the post was designed to keep us from reacting so quickly to Wade's post went further than what I expected. I'm not sure that my reading was 100% accurate, either.<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>BartBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156305930001742232006-08-22T23:05:00.000-05:002006-08-22T23:05:00.000-05:00David,I Thank your Mother for the talk she gave on...David,<BR/><BR/>I Thank your Mother for the talk she gave on this very subject. Jesus Prayed for Unity in the Body, which is Jesus's Body.<BR/><BR/>A Brother in ChristWayne Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14218244632682134340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156305626982247932006-08-22T23:00:00.000-05:002006-08-22T23:00:00.000-05:00David,Thank you for this post, which is my main co...David,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for this post, which is my main concern for the SBC.<BR/><BR/>Kingdom Authority, one of your Fathers Books that he wrote should be a must read for all Baptist. I surrender ALL is the song that comes to mind, when I think about this Book(Kingdom Authority).<BR/><BR/>It is Christ Centered, not Baptist Centered. If we are not focused on Jesus Christ we have lost our focus.<BR/>We should never compromise the Word of God(Bible) in any way like the BF&M 2000 qualifications for a Deacon being open for a woman.<BR/>My prayers are with You David, as well as all the Missionaries throughout the world.<BR/><BR/>A Brother in ChristWayne Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14218244632682134340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156284806091048992006-08-22T17:13:00.000-05:002006-08-22T17:13:00.000-05:00Tim,Apology accepted. And no, I was not offended i...Tim,<BR/><BR/>Apology accepted. And no, I was not offended in any way by your comment. It is just as valid to quote my father on this blog as it is to quote anyone else. And I hope just as valid to quote him to me as it is to quote him to anyone else. <BR/><BR/>I believe my father would be in agreement with what I have written. But, even more important, I have to be true to my own beliefs and convictions, under accountability to my Heavenly Father.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156284128121263492006-08-22T17:02:00.000-05:002006-08-22T17:02:00.000-05:00Brother David,I need to apologize. After reading ...Brother David,<BR/><BR/>I need to apologize. After reading Brother Bart's comment, I went back and re-read your post. I missed completely the paragraph on the orphanage the first time. I must have had a brain glitch or something. I agree with your assessment and ask your forgiveness. I am sorry if I offended you in any way referring back to your father. I now see that you were merely pointing out the same things I have heard him more pointedly say over the years. <BR/><BR/>Brother Bart,<BR/>Thank you for calling my attention to the error of my reading. If my comment offended you in any way, please forgive me. It was not my intention to offend. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TimTim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156283148575444942006-08-22T16:45:00.000-05:002006-08-22T16:45:00.000-05:00I just found it ironic that in a post about unity ...I just found it ironic that in a post about unity someone started wondering whose side someone was on. Thus, the reference to Corinthians...Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-1156272810411864652006-08-22T13:53:00.000-05:002006-08-22T13:53:00.000-05:00Thank you, Bart,Yes, you have apparently understoo...Thank you, Bart,<BR/><BR/>Yes, you have apparently understood me correctly. Although I count Wade as a friend, and have been more overt in my support of other things he has said on this blog, I am not in this post intending to take one side or another in the current "controversy." I do hope, however, that the perspective I offer here would help some to not be so quick to judge Wade's motives.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.com