tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post5824364032359143084..comments2023-06-02T05:56:55.748-05:00Comments on Love Each Stone: Application of Grudem's Article to the Current Situation in the SBC (Part 6)David Rogershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-19520580563788164422007-02-13T09:11:00.000-06:002007-02-13T09:11:00.000-06:00anon,if you want to read what bible scholars have ...anon,<BR/><BR/>if you want to read what bible scholars have to say about a ppl, then why dont you read john mcarthur? j. vernon mcgee? a.t. robertson? calvin? and such a host of others that it would take a long time to list all of them. <BR/><BR/>why not bring them up in our discussion?<BR/><BR/>davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-6017899990014738502007-02-12T18:03:00.000-06:002007-02-12T18:03:00.000-06:00So Steve has resorted back to his own experiences....So Steve has resorted back to his own experiences. And Volfan David is arguing from what he imagines a scenario would be like. I'm so pleased that the scholarly efforts of people like Fee, Grudem, and Carson (among others) do not fall on deaf ears.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-58168401419014253602007-02-12T16:55:00.000-06:002007-02-12T16:55:00.000-06:00David, I would have to agree with david :)my exper...David, I would have to agree with david :)<BR/>my experience with tongue speakers who agreed to ppl in the former charismatic church i pastored was that their spiritual maturity was limited by their unwillingness to deal with personal problems and crises, and instead of resorting to the Lord and His Word in when they were in crisis, they resorted to their PPL.<BR/>Effectively, they retreated from their problems rather than proactively dealing with them before the Lord.<BR/>I believe their spiritual growth suffered because of this "retreat" perspective, with similar psychological effects as that experienced by those who retreat to physical escape mechanisms such as soft drugs, over the counter sedatives, or alcohol.<BR/>I have spoken with medical practitioners who have a similar opinion. Some medical practitioners I know say, "Well I guess its safer than alcohol, so let them do it!"<BR/>Although PPL may be perceived as a fairly safe escape mechanism, it can be psychologically addictive, and is still an escape mechanism; a retreat from problems rather than a dealing with problems biblically.<BR/>SteveGroseys messageshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256060632754175527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-73716776474169521562007-02-12T16:37:00.000-06:002007-02-12T16:37:00.000-06:00the problem i would have with a ppl is when they w...the problem i would have with a ppl is when they would tell others about it...thus promoting it.....and, even teaching it as a true gift.<BR/><BR/>david, i guess the problem we have right off the bat is that i dont believe that ppl is a real gift of the Spirit. i think its just someone who is having an emotional experience. like i said, i have no problem with those who feel that they need this in thier life. i just would not be for them telling it to others. they should keep it to themselves. otherwise, as a missionary, or a pastor, it would automatically be teaching it and promoting it.<BR/><BR/>davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-38788636911157364722007-02-10T23:16:00.000-06:002007-02-10T23:16:00.000-06:00Vol fan David,As I said before, "either I asked, o...Vol fan David,<BR/><BR/>As I said before, "either I asked, or they privately confided to me." By the way, I don't define "private prayer language" as never, ever tell anyone about it. I define it as practiced in the "privacy" of one's prayer closet.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, you say you have a man in your church. How did you know? Does this man "teach" or "promote" it? Also, remember (regarding the others you mention) I said specifically "non-charismatic" PPL-practicers. I think the main predictor as to whether someone will feel a compulsion to "teach" or "promote" it is the teaching they receive from others, either in their church, or some other context. If the teaching they receive is that it is just a gift, and God gives different gifts to different people, then, they will likely see no need to "teach" or "promote" it, except as just a gift that God might happen to give you.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-89264828824843269422007-02-10T18:30:00.000-06:002007-02-10T18:30:00.000-06:00david,again, if its truly a ppl, how did you know ...david,<BR/><BR/>again, if its truly a ppl, how did you know that they had one? and, yes, i have a man in my church that has a ppl, and i have an uncle that used to have a ppl. on my momma's side of the family, several of them were church of God and had charismatic leanings. also, i had many friends in college who had a ppl. <BR/><BR/>davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-50097748610219873892007-02-10T17:24:00.000-06:002007-02-10T17:24:00.000-06:00Vol fan David,A question for you. Do you know, or ...Vol fan David,<BR/><BR/>A question for you. Do you know, or have you had the opportunity for fellowship with any "non-charismatic" practictioners of PPL (see my post <A HREF="http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/01/charismatic-continualists-and-non.html" REL="nofollow">here </A> if you don't know what I mean)? Because I can assure you they exist, and not just a few here and there.<BR/><BR/>Once you have had the opportunity to get to know and spend some time to fellowship in the Lord with some of these folks (if you have not), then I may be more open to what you have to say regarding having PPL and not being able to refrain from teaching it or promoting it.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-70215788221222481512007-02-10T14:49:00.000-06:002007-02-10T14:49:00.000-06:00david,maybe the ppl issue at the imb is a little o...david,<BR/><BR/>maybe the ppl issue at the imb is a little over the top, or maybe not. as i said, i dont know if someone with a ppl can not teach it....will not promote it. i just dont know if they can refrain from such a thing. it seems that many who claim to have such a gift do end up....in the least....telling others about it, and in the worst, they teach it. and, this can lead to the extremes and wildness that steve talks about in australia. i believe most of us have seen, or know of churches where the charismatic movement came in and caused great trouble. do we not?<BR/><BR/>wade, i dont think that steve was even talking to you, nor about you, and that passage in proverbs is a good one for all of us to look at. God hates...yes, even despises....those who cause discord amongst brothers.<BR/><BR/>davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-86051022592464219902007-02-09T14:32:00.000-06:002007-02-09T14:32:00.000-06:00I believe the evidence of a lack of new birth can ...I believe the evidence of a lack of new birth can be seen in intentional lying, hatred, pride and the seven deadly sins of Proverbs than in speaking in a private prayer language.<BR/><BR/>Would you not agree Mr. Grosey?wadeburleson.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09712009938843809657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-35027039338672960592007-02-09T11:10:00.000-06:002007-02-09T11:10:00.000-06:00Vol fan David,Beside the fact that I don't agree w...Vol fan David,<BR/><BR/>Beside the fact that I don't agree with your description of PPL as "getting worked up emotionally" and uttering "ecstatic, unintelligle words" (although I will not deny that is exactly what happens in SOME cases), it looks like, by what you say here, that you are really not that far from what I (and a lot of others) have been trying to say. We are not advocating public teaching of tongues, at least not, as Carson refers to it in the excerpt quoted in the post, as a "criterion" of anything. I am firmly against that.<BR/><BR/>I have known quite a few, of whom I found out in one way or another (either I asked, or they privately confided to me...) they had a PPL. Of those I have known, very few have exhibited to any degree known to me a compulsion to proselytize or win others over to the same experience. Many have been extremely discrete about it. It is the elimination of these type of people from missionary service that concerns me. Does it not concern you as well?David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-28290023314627252302007-02-09T10:50:00.000-06:002007-02-09T10:50:00.000-06:00you know, if someone feels the need to get worked ...you know, if someone feels the need to get worked up emotionally and in a private prayer closet utter ecstatic, unintelligible words.....well fine. go ahead. but, the danger you have is when these people start teaching others to do it too. then, it leads to unsoundness and wild, pentecostal type practices. if you could really trust people with a ppl to keep it private, then i would have no problems with it. but, i dont know if they can keep it private.<BR/><BR/>davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-25411993561272722682007-02-08T20:18:00.000-06:002007-02-08T20:18:00.000-06:00We cannot Biblically denounce PPL just because of ...We cannot Biblically denounce PPL just because of the potential abuse. That could be said of any part of doctrine. Staying with what scripture says is the key. <BR/><BR/>Dr. Jerry Rankin has been head of the IMB for quite awhile. He has a PPL, he has not brought any abuses in. People like Dr. Rankin cannot be excluded out of fear.Debbie Kaufmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17748664558802779885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-58620845891403152032007-02-08T14:39:00.000-06:002007-02-08T14:39:00.000-06:00Thank you Strider,I 100% agree. In fact I think th...Thank you Strider,<BR/>I 100% agree. In fact I think the issue is actually one of the new birth (I hold to perserverance of the saints). Also, all that glitters is not gold.<BR/>But rightly, anonymous indicated that my argument on this issue appears to be experiential rather than theological.<BR/>May I state my understanding theologically in a positive way?<BR/>Dependance upon anything other than the Lord and His Word for Christian growth or comfort is counterproductive to true christian growth and maturity, and constitutes idolatry. The things we find comforting often indicate the things to which we are truly devoted. <BR/>May I use as scriptural proofs:<BR/>Acts 20:32 “And now I commit you to God and to the message of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all who are sanctified. <BR/>2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the entire book of Colossions should also be cited.<BR/><BR/>PPL has proven to be an unhelpful distraction when used as a substitute, producing idolaters (worshippers of a god created in the image of the prosperity preacher) rather than worshippers of God.<BR/><BR/>Now I guess that sounds like an angry rhetorical unchristian statement because it is stated so bluntly. I have struggled with the phenomena for 3 decades, I'm not angry, just deeeply concerned for the burnt over ground. The statement does however make sense of the 80% fall out rate from pentecostal (and I use that term broadly) type churches.<BR/><BR/>Oh, do I think SBC's are immune from the same thing? No Way! Why do some preacher's in SBC megachurches see their ministry as getting the members saved?<BR/>When I commence a new church plant, or commence ministry in a new church I always go into that ministry with the understanding that only about half of the church members are truly saved. (Still, half is better than 20%, and if you are a mathematician you will already have surmised that by the figures I quoted in my earlier comment, its around about 12%)<BR/><BR/>SteveGroseys messageshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256060632754175527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-49953776398101330712007-02-08T11:05:00.000-06:002007-02-08T11:05:00.000-06:00Tim, I think you have hit the nail on the head. F...Tim, I think you have hit the nail on the head. For myself I don't speak in tongues- I prayed for that gift for many years after my conversion but it never came. God probably didn't give it to me so I could serve with the IMB today! <BR/>But while I disagree with Steve about tongues he is dead on about what he has seen in Australia and I have seen it in a more limited way myself. My brother in law is quite bitter toward God and the Church as a result of his experiences. It was not tongues that let him down though. It was the Health/Wealth doctrine that always promises more if you only have the faith to believe. Well, a good many folks have burned themselves out on this teaching. <BR/>So, back to Grudem's point in David's post. Yes, there are doctines and practices that act as wolves among the sheep and they must be opposed by caring shepherds. Tongues is not a wolf in and of itself. But the truth is that those who believe and practice tongues often carry this other baggage. We need to discern these things and care for our brothers. A blanket rule about tongues will not help our people or our organizations. We must discern the real wolves and cast them out from among us.Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07347436154893544535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-86539331499682099112007-02-07T22:18:00.000-06:002007-02-07T22:18:00.000-06:00Steve,I trust you will receive my comment in the s...Steve,<BR/><BR/>I trust you will receive my comment in the spirit it is intended. One of cessationists' main points of contention is that continualists too often resort to arguing from experience. Yet, brother, that is what you have done herein. If memory serves, many (if not most) of your posts on this subject contain references to your experience observing abuses of Pentecostalism in Australia. While none of us can fully divorce our hermeneutics from our context, it does seem as though the latter more often drives the former in your comments, at least on this particular subject.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps you will then forgive those of us who side with Carson and Grudem (and Rogers) for we do not approach the sacred text on this subject through the lenses of your experiences in Australia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-58512908840159173832007-02-07T21:17:00.000-06:002007-02-07T21:17:00.000-06:00As the founding and present pastor of a church in ...As the founding and present pastor of a church in SE Asia similar to the one Don Carson describes, I can wholeheartedly say it <I><B>is</B></I> possible for charismatics and non-charismatics to serve together. <BR/><BR/>In our international church, the current elders and deacons come from these backgrounds: Brethren and Evangelical Free (3 Malaysians), Assembly of God/G12 (1 South African), Baptist and Presbyterian (3 Americans), and charismatic Anglican (1 Englishman coming on board). <BR/><BR/>Granted, we are probably an exception to the norm, as are many international churches, but with God's grace and biblical teaching such as Carson described, it is possible -- I would say <I>desirable</I> -- to demonstrate love and unity in diversity as we pursue a clear mission and vision. We don't have to convert everyone to all of our interpretations in order to work together.<BR/><BR/>PPL and "baptism in/with the Holy Spirit" are <I>not necessarily</I> dangerous doctrines or "harmful to our churches." They can be taught and practiced from Scripture in an atmosphere of love, wisdom, and order.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, David, I think you're on the right track, along with Grudem and Carson. Thanks for this series.Todd Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18131930025633807723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-82978716734153565772007-02-07T15:41:00.000-06:002007-02-07T15:41:00.000-06:00Interestingly, Don Carson's book was written in 19...Interestingly, Don Carson's book was written in 1988, with a dedication to the staff of Moore college in Sydney (Moore is a wonderful evangelical anglican college (currently planting quasi Baptist churches throughout Australia). I attempted to resign from the Baptist college in 1981 to attend Moore college due to the rising liberalism in our Baptist college.. much more extreme than in the SBC during the same period.)By God's grace 18 months ago we had Don as our Baptist convention speaker. Don has been to Australia about 20 times.<br />However, Don's book does not deal with the current phenomena that is being experienced among Pentecostals in the South East Asia region.<br /><br />In 1987 the pastor (Arthur McGrath) of the Paradise AOG church rang me..<br /><br />AM: "Steve, we have a church in Paradise."<br /><br />SG: "Arthur I sure do hope we got one there too."<br /><br />AM: "No Steve, Paradise South Australia"<br /><br />SG:"Tell me about your church Arthur"<br /><br />AM: "We have added 2000 new members every year for 18 years."<br /><br />SG: "Wow Arthur that's amazing! How many members have you got now?"<br /><br />AM: "3000!"<br /><br />SG: "Wow Arthur, you got a big front door.."<br /><br />AM:"and a big back door Steve"<br /><br />SG: "tell me Arthur what are they like when they go out the back door?"<br /><br />AM:"They are more blasphemous, more immoral and more ungodly than before they walked in the front door."<br /><br />SG: "How do you know this Arthur?"<br /><br />AM"I have visited them myself, What do you think the problem is Steve?"<br /><br />SG: "Maybe they were never born again in the first place Arthur!"<br /><br />AM: "You know what Steve, I think you are right! Funny, I have never thought of that before!"<br /><br />I have had that same conversation with the elders at Hillsong. I have had that same conversation with the Youth pastor at Newcastle City Church.<br /><br />Tomorrow I have to do a funeral for some folk where the majority are ex pentecostal.. all really bitter and hateful to the things of God.<br /><br />When 7/8ths of Pentecostal people (tongue speakers) are actively haters of God, I find it difficult to listen to someone say that this actually improves someone's spiritual life.<br />It may do so for a very short time (2-5 years). But in the main, 7 out of 8 will be out the back door bitter and hateful towards God, at the end of the day.<br />I am sorry David, as a former pastor of a charismatic church I believe you are wrong.<br />SteveGroseys messageshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256060632754175527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22575956.post-60040440293068781142007-02-07T15:19:00.000-06:002007-02-07T15:19:00.000-06:00David,
Thank you for pointing people to Carson's ...David,<br /><br />Thank you for pointing people to Carson's book. I read it for the first time a couple of years ago. It is a very balanced study of 1 Cor. 12-14.<br /><br />-AlanAlan Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07452247058550736803noreply@blogger.com